Insanity in Cali: “Vote Yes” signs stolen, death threats issued
If this doesn’t beat all, I don’t know what will.
Nice Mormon folks who simply want to vote their conscience and raise awareness about the need to preserve the traditional definition of marriage are being targeted with death threats by anti-Proposition 8 sign-stealing hatemongers.
At least a dozen people in a California LDS ward have received these threats, including a bishop and a Young Single Adult branch president.
For obvious reasons, I’m not going to post the location of this occurrence. That would be bad news for the folks who keep having to deal with this. But rest assured, this is not a hoax. There will be public record police reports to look at soon.
This is an outrage no matter which side of the fence you’re on with this issue. Have we sunk so low as to resort to third-world tactics? Are the supporters of the gay agenda going to start going door-to-door, pulling people out of their beds at night and covering them with tar and feathers?
The only way this will stop is if the people reading GrizzlyGroundswell do the following:
1. Put out the word to your own social networks (facebook, twitter, Digg, etc.)
2. Mention it (non-threateningly) to people you know whenever the subject of Prop 8 arises. Help them to understand how equally wrong this would be if the tables turned and people of faith suddenly started distributing death-threat letters in gay neighborhoods.
3. Follow #hateon8 twitter hashtag for commentary. It won’t be pretty. All kinds of malcontents will latch on, but it will sure shine a bright light on what’s really going through people’s minds.
Link to this page
I am only interested in arguing if people are capable of doing so without using religious beliefs as facts (I’m non religious) and using reason and logic. Please be civil , we can respect that we have different views even if we disagree strongly with each others views.
Dear Yes on 8 people,
I’m a fifteen year old girl who was raised in tolerance and
acceptance. All my life I’ve been taught to listen and to learn and
that some things aren’t something people can control. Race, gender,
what family one is born to , and sexual orientation. You believe some
people choose- tell me why? Why someone chooses to go to school and
get spit on- told they are inferior-hated- discriminated against-
bullied- told they aren’t good enough- thrown out of their religion or
community ?
Why would someone choose that? I am who I am and I’ve learned to live
with that and learned how to live with how others are. I won’t condemn
someone for something they do anything about because that is wrong as
I was raised to believe.
Also- in the 60s there were laws preventing people of mixed races from
marrying- that was discrimination and something I’m ashamed to know my
country had a part in. HOw is this any different? Discrimination is
discrimination no matter who you are discriminating against- blacks,
whites, latinos, gays, lesbians, bisexuals, Christians,Jews, or
Muslims.
Its fine for you to have your own beliefs but don’t take away others
rights for them. Also Prop 8 doesn’t affect the schools because 1) in
all the years I’ve been a student I’ve never taken a class on marriage
and never heard of it being offered and 2) anything related to sex or
sexual orientation is under the command of parents- if they don’t want
their children learning it they are allowed to pull their kids out of
the class. Please don’t think you are helping the schools!
You want to protect kids? Like me? From what though- I have friends
and family members who are lesbian and bisexuals and gay and believe
me it wasn’t an easy transition into finding themselves. They are all
good people- they believe in doing the right thing- sticking up to
ones morals and accepting responsibility. That’s something I’ve
learned from them- especially about staying true to oneself - is that
what I need to be protected from?
God created marriage to be between man and woman?
1) It isn’t relevant to humanity since humans are more than capable of
having kids without marriage and plenty do and whatever your personal
beliefs on that are you don’t have the right to condemn them for it.
2) Some of us don’t believe in your god and or don’t believe in God.
I personally don’t after being raised Jewish and Catholic - I’ve made
a conscious choice to be non religious and that one religion isn’t
right for me. Marriage means something different to everyone- to me
it means to people who love each other being legally recognized. Love
is so hard to find and its one of those things you dream about and
think about as a teenager. Love isn’t lust- its not peer pressure, its
something different. Why would you condemn someone for loving someone
when almost no one gets to decide who they love? I”m a fifteen year
old teenager and believe me - you can want to not feel something but
you still feel it- love doesn’t follow any rules.
If marriage is sacred , do you mean a 55 hr marriage is sacred? Or
marriages where the wives are beaten half to death is sacred?
Marriages where little girls lose their innocence and hope forever
because their mother married someone who was a bad person because her
community says being an unmarried mother is wrong. I don’t know what
you judge as sacred but to me- children terrified of everything
because they see their father beat their mother is not sacred- girls
who grow up beaten and scarred only able to expect the same cycle to
continue is certainly not sacred. Marriage is what it is- it should be
people who love each other not relying on gender because a straight
marriage is very capable of not being sacred.
Stop judging, stop hating, stop discriminating!
A proud member of GSA who believes in doing the right thing which is
why she is speaking up right now. I’m fifteen but my eyes are open
and I’m willing to accept people who are different than me- Are you?
Discrimination is wrong- no one has the right to take away rights from
someone else- regardless of what they believe! Everyone is entitled to
a voice but not when it silences others.
FreedomWriter
Kids aren’t more likely to be gay just because their parents are- thats irrelevant. Would you say that the kids who grow up to knock up girls at 15,16, and 17 respect marriage? If they marry those girls and then beat them isn’t that also disrespecting marriage?
Unless I’m wrong- the traditional marriage is a christian concept and this country is secular last time I thought. People have the right to have different definitions of marriage- why can’t they have an not traditional marriage?
Why can’t we call it marriage if marriage means two people who love each other? It is taking a way a right because its saying that they don’t have the right to be called married. I think marriage is sacred but not for the reason you do. I think having love with someone is sacred- its one of the most amazing things in the world and for people to want that recognized legally then I see nothing wrong with that . People can love without marriage but if they want visitation rights and legal rights then they should be allowed to marry and keep their love.
How many people find love? Love that fits the true sacred definition for it- love that knows no colors, no races, no divisions- only loving someone and wanting them to be happy. If I love a girl- and are loved back then I’d rather be with her than a relationship with a guy that I know isn’t right for me. I don’t know what I am- its not a choice though. Believe me I wished for so long to be something or another- because I thought it was easier or I liked this person but its not a choice. I still don’t know what I am and I’m content to wait and just live my life. I will eventually know and right now I follow my heart.
If making being gay seem ok and you think that will make more kids persue that lifestyle than why is anyone ever gay if they have straight parents who are strict christians? Making it tolerated only means that people will feel more comfortable in society and able to talk to their parents. If you want to focus on a real issue how about teen pregnancy? Which coming from the teenage community is a serious issue? Or gang violence and intolerance? Those do actually take lives every day- people die or lose their futures due to that- Gay marriage doesn’t steal futures from people.
I got to go study for a history test but I’ll be back on later to see if anyone wants to debate with me..
Some of us aren’t christian- does that mean we are wrong and shouldn’t get a say or can you have your values include us too int hat we don’t believe in god or believe in God’s definition for marriage?
6 out of 20 raised by lesbians said they did…according to your experience, every girl has had a lesbian encounter…so why isnt the 6/20 ratio not higher? And again, these statistics were taken from a gender research project who’s aim it is to prove that gender doesn’t matter.
I personally won’t place all my eggs in the basket of a study, no matter what it says….but its a study none-the-less…and from a seemingly pro lesbian biased group. The lesbian woman qouted in the study says that she was ‘elated’ that one would have such an increase in openedness of sexuality…so she didn’t seem to think the result was a negative relfection.
52StopDiscriminating
on 05 Nov 2008 at 10:32 pm
“People have the right to have different definitions of marriage”
One has the right to define a dog as a cat…but why would that fail? We define animals, things, words, ideals…we define them and agree on those definitions so that there isn’t any confusion…when a dog is missing, we’re not looking for something that looks like a cat.
Pedophiles might define a sexually ready girl as one displaying signs of puberty…when does that definition stick? Some would define a girl sexually ready if they physically respond….one has the right to believe in thier definition…but for such sociologically important terms, one must carefully proceed.
you said
“Unless I’m wrong- the traditional marriage is a christian concept and this country is secular”
you’re not wrong….Here we have a religiously based institution adopted by the government….and now you have non religious persons, and the government seeking to redefine their institution of marriage. That’s State stepping into Church’s world.
52StopDiscriminating
on 05 Nov 2008 at 10:32 pm
“Kids aren’t more likely to be gay just because their parents are- thats irrelevant.”
Who are you or who am i to say otherwise? That’s what this particular gender study showed…besides…it’s logical. Kids role model their parents behavior….hence the need for our behavior to improve, as you so described by your abuse analogies
52StopDiscriminating
on 05 Nov 2008 at 10:32 pm
“Love that fits the true sacred definition for it- love that knows no colors, no races, no divisions- only loving someone and wanting them to be happy.”
No…true love KNOWS about the color, the race, the divisions and IS despite all of that.
Well, Chad, it could be said that I date all the right women. lol
Of course, I”m not talking about the girls that I have taken out once or twice. But the ones that I’ve taken out for, let’s say a month, always have some kind of story to tell.
Chances are, you have female friends that you would never expect to have kissed a girl or messed around with a girl, yet they have. And if you look down on it, that would explain why you’ve never been told. A woman at work, who I considered to be the most uptight person on the planet, recently revealed to me, after three years of working side by side and getting to know each other really well (mostly because she complains about her evil husband) that she’s had a few girl on girl encounters. I NEVER would have thought that was possible. And my current girlfriend has always said that every girl has kissed another girl, but a lot of them just won’t admit it. Of course, sometimes there is alcohol involved, but even so, the desire must be there, even if under the influence.
As for the study, I’m not saying that EVERY girl at the ages they checked would have had a lesbian experience by that time. I’m saying that it’s ridiculous for part of the study to show that NONE of those girls had had one.
@Jim: You just proved my point. Not everyone that voted for prop 8 hates gays, and not everyone that voted no hates religion. My point is there are ignorant people on both sides who do not respect others beliefs, and are intolerant.
I was half-way joking. Who knows how it would have gone if all the haters didn’t vote…
@StopDiscriminating:
“Everyone is entitled to a voice but not when it silences others.”
Where do you draw the line? Should my voice be silenced, because I have a belief and opinion that’s different than yours? No one’s voice was silenced in this election, unless they chose not to vote. The voice of the people voted to define marriage between a man and a woman.
“Some of us aren’t christian- does that mean we are wrong and shouldn’t get a say”
Some of us are Christian, or other religions- does that mean we shouldn’t get a say, just because we believe in some higher power?
I understand that religion is not “trendy” anymore. But it still needs to be “tolerated”. Tolerance means allowing others to keep their beliefs and opinions, without repercussion. I have never called a homosexual ignorant, or stupid, or bigotted, for their beliefs or lifestyle. Unfortunately, the opposite is not true. Why don’t we practice real tolerance, and accept that, sometimes, people will have differing views? It’s not always about discrimination or hate…
But spade, isn’t it discrimination when you say that one group can not have the same rights as another group? Isn’t that pretty much the definition of discrimination? And even if it isn’t, how can someone vote yes on a proposition that will make millions of people miserable?
What if the proposition had said that marriage is defined as a union between a WHITE man and a WHITE woman and it passed? Would that be okay because the people were allowed to speak? There are countless examples in our nation’s history where the majority vote was not the right one. I don’t recall the Emancipation Proclamation being voted on.
I live in an area that is mostly Armenian and I am white. If there was a vote to evict every white person in this city, it would probably have a good chance at passing. And if it did, would that be fair?
You speak of tolerance, but vote in such a way that negates that. I easily tolerate religion and I think a lot of people do, and I think in turn, the religious people should tolerate homosexuals … and tolerance should include having the same rights.
I am bothered by the fact that if the rights of ANY PERSON on this board were being infringed upon, I would be right beside you holding a sign to help fight for equality … and I’m sure a lot of gay people would be, too … and you would gladly take their support, even though you don’t support their rights. Seems a bit hypocritical.
You know what’s going to happen. There will now be lawsuits again, which translates to taxpayers’ hard-earned money to be affected.
And what else is being done to protect the sanctity of marriage? The answer is … NOTHING. Everyone is all talk, unless action is being taken against homosexuality. Then, it’s suddenly important. Fair weather marriage supporters, I would say.
Oh, and I didn’t say that EVERYONE who voted yes hates gays. That would be silly. But you have to admit that if someone DOES hate homosexuality, this was the perfect way to legally “stick it to ‘em.”
“People have the right to have different definitions of marriage”
Yes but gays and straights are both humans and since they are the same species and both decent people and both unable to control their sexual orientation your cat-dog analogy fails.
I’m not defining marriage as something that will harm someone else or do bad to someone else because it affects the people that are gay directly in their marriages. Pedophiles are not relevant because while they are wrong when they act on the way they feel , feeling the way they do isn’t something they can help. If we look at emotional welfare and sociologically important terms than a girl might not be sexually ready and gay marriage won’t harm anyone else.
“Unless I’m wrong- the traditional marriage is a christian concept and this country is secular”
Correction- most of you quote the bible as proof of man and woman and since that is religious and this is a non religious country you don’t have the right to enforce your beliefs on other people. Which you are doing by saying someone can’t marry because your bible says they can’t. Its people who are religiously biased not the govt stepping in.
Can anyone give me proof that doesnt come from the bible since I’m not religious, about how marriage should only be between a man and a woman?
Then why are kids born gay when they have straight Christian parents?
How does that work? I know a lot of people who are lesbian, bi or gay and who have children and their children , those old enough to have any idea of what they are, are straight. There is also nothing wrong with being gay so if kids end up gay than great- and having parents who are okay with that just improves the parent and kids relationship.That doesn’t mean they will be gay though. I consider abuse and gay marriage to be very different though- abuse is a behavior we can influence and can control and its roots are problems that we can solve. Being gay isn’t something we can influence- we can convince someone they think they aren’t or convince them they are wrong but they are still gay and most likely very unhappy and unable to come to terms with who they are.
Well, my point still works cause true love isn’t stopped by that which was my point of - it knows no colors or races- meaning it doesn’t know that as obstacles.
“Everyone is entitled to a voice but not when it silences others.”
Where do you draw the line?
I draw the line when people are silencing others and taking away their rights. I am not saying you can’t speak just that your right to a voice doesn’t come before other’s rights to a voice. You can’t use your voice to silence anyone- and vice versa. I do believe that if people can argue about Prop 8 civilly and with respect they are welcome to have those opinions- and I don’t even think that you can’t have your opinions though I think that they are discriminatory. I just think that you shouldn’t be allowed to take away someone elses rights or enforce your beliefs on someone else.
Should my voice be silenced, because I have a belief and opinion that’s different than yours?
No one’s voice was silenced in this election, unless they chose not to vote. The voice of the people voted to define marriage between a man and a woman.
Which is unconstitutional and discriminatory- and yes their right to be married was taken.
“Some of us aren’t christian- does that mean we are wrong and shouldn’t get a say”
Some of us are Christian, or other religions- does that mean we shouldn’t get a say, just because we believe in some higher power?
Well no, but I’m just saying that you need to use something beyond religion to prove your point with people who aren’t religious because religion doesn’t prove anything to us cause it means something different.
I understand that religion is not “trendy” anymore. But it still needs to be “tolerated”. Tolerance means allowing others to keep their beliefs and opinions, without repercussion.
I tolerate it but I don’t think it holds all truths and that you can use religion and no facts and no reason or logic that applies to non religious people in an arguement. I don’t think religion belongs legally in this discussion at all but thats me. Religion isn’t something everyone follows and so since it isn’t , it shouldn’t be the way to decide right or wrong in this case.
I have never called a homosexual ignorant, or stupid, or bigotted, for their beliefs or lifestyle.
I applaud you and I have to admit that in spite of that plenty others have. In fact today girls at my school were making nasty comments about it when I was discussing prop 8 with them.
Unfortunately, the opposite is not true.
Well I don’t say that about religious people- I do think its bigotry to be against gays. Not all religious people are like that though- my friend who can’t even celebrate Haloween because of how religious her family is- believes that gay marriage is fine and prop 8 is wrong. I respect other people’s right to a view just not their right to enforce their beliefs on others who don’t want to live that way or follow that- and I don’t respect people who can’t accept and be tolerant.
Why don’t we practice real tolerance, and accept that, sometimes, people will have differing views? It’s not always about discrimination or hate…
It isn’t always- for many people sadly gay marriage is about hatred though- and for many others it is discrimination against sexual preference.
You say I can’t use religion as a basis for my opinions because not everyone is religious and it doesn’t apply.
It applies to me.
I have certain, deep-founded, beliefs. The fact that other people don’t share them with me is irrelevant. When it comes to voting on issues, I base my vote on what I believe, not what anyone else believes. I don’t think it is right to expect me to sacrifice what I believe in to make a minority of the people happy.
“I respect other people’s right to a view just not their right to enforce their beliefs on others who don’t want to live that way or follow that”
It goes both ways. By redefining marriage, you are enforcing your beliefs on me, when I don’t want to live that way or follow that.
I truly do understand that passing prop 8 was not what everyone wanted, and I’m sorry that not everyone can get what they want. But, again, living in a democratic society, this is the way it goes sometimes. Fortunately, under the law, civil unions still are afforded the same legal rights as traditional marriages. Meaning, today, just as it was a week ago, they have the same rights. It’s just semantics, or calling it by another name.
Oh, one more comment on the Bible topic.
I agree that using the Bible to prove something to someone that doesn’t believe in it is pointless. However, I don’t think I need to prove anything. Again, I voted on my beliefs, and because their mine, not anyone elses, they don’t need to be proven or justified to anyone but me. Just my two cents…
@Jim: Nope, your wrong and way off base!
@Sam: Like Solomon, been there done that, yet all is Vanity. And those are the girlfriends I did not choose to marry. My Choice.
Isn’t it odd that any male will tell you two women kissing is a real turn on, yet two men makes me wretch! Yet, I can be friends with homosexual males and actually those not artists are all conservatives that I know. Actually having a libertarian vein in my conservatism, I honestly don’t care what others do in their bedroom as long as they do not bring it into the political arena as an agenda that seeks to infringe upon the defeat of this nation or infringing upon others rights.
What would happen when a church would be mandated to marry a homosexual couple? A business owner forced to provide insurance or a service to a same sex partner? What I am saying is it infringes on the rights and freedoms of that church, that business owner to uphold their principles. It does not even have to be based on Religion. Acceptance seems to be a one way street here. The church has to accept their choice, yet they do not accept the business owner or the Church’s choice. It honestly is just that simple. Now do they have the freedom to start their own church or business? Hell yeah! And I would definately support that, although that is not what they are after! The political homosexual agenda is after forcing their choice to marry or share their sexual orientation with others in our society who really do not care to know, or provide services that may go against who they define themselves as. thus infringing upon personal freedoms and choice.
America gives you the freedom to be and do almost anything you want under the rule of law. When an agenda enters the political arena to change and effect the rule of law, then that is when I have a problem. And if I have the numbers to pass or shoot down the amendment, then the will of the people is in place.
Like in the election of Obama. I tried very hard not to let that travesty happen but it did and I respect the rule of law and the will of my fellow Americans. I am also a little excited to finally be able to put a current face on Socialism. However, I will still respect the office and in turn have to respect Obama holding that office. Happy about it, definitely not! But, I am not going to over throw the country we all love because I did not get my way.
Now, what is the response of those who lost prop 8?
I pray it is not radical and they will live to fight another day!
Chad Everson
@Jim:
“how can someone vote yes on a proposition that will make millions of people miserable”
It’s a two-way street. Did the anti prop 8 voters consider my happiness when they voted? Did those that voted for Obama consider my happiness? That’s not the way this works. I vote for the things that I think will make society better, and, yes, for my own well-being. Is it selfish? Probably, but I’m pretty sure everyone does the same.
“There are countless examples in our nation’s history where the majority vote was not the right one”
Hindsight is 20/20. Living in the present, not having a crystal clear vision of the future, I vote the best way I can. If society starts to crumble because prop 8 passed, maybe we’ll look back and see this as a turning point.
“I live in an area that is mostly Armenian and I am white. If there was a vote to evict every white person in this city, it would probably have a good chance at passing. And if it did, would that be fair?”
This isn’t about “fair”. We live in a democracy, where everyone’s voice is counted equally. Would it be “fair” if the majority of the people passed a proposition, expressing their opinion through legal means, only to see it overturned because of a vocal minority? Oh, wait. That already did happen.
When the people vote for injustice, that’s what they get, as well as all of the consequences. Again, it’s democracy. If you don’t like it, try to institute a dictatorship, or some other form that you think is “fair”. Unti then, I think we should accept the will and voice of the people. If the vote had gone the other way, I would not have been happy, but I would have accepted it.
“You speak of tolerance, but vote in such a way that negates that”
I disagree. I absolutely tolerate the homosexual lifestyle and community. It’s not something I can change, nor do I want to. I will let everyone can live their lives as they see fit, as long as it doesn’t impinge on my or my family’s rights. What I’ve realized is that everyone has a different idea of what their “rights” are. I thought I had a right to voice my opinion through my vote. Some people seem to think that’s wrong, because of my views. My yes vote does not show I don’t tolerate gays, but shows that I believe in the traditional definition of marriage.
What if the ballot had been about multiple spouses, male or female or both? Would you have supported that? All the same arguments could be made.
I wish death upon ALL of ‘Yes on Prop 8′ homophobes. Jesus hates you.
GO DIE
I want you to all just die.
Die.
Die-ty die.
BTW: I stole your signs and ripped them up
@Amanda: Proof, that is the only reason this was approved!
S & K,
Actually, the rights are NOT equal. If you read the CFC completely, you'll see that homosexuals can register a Domestic Partnership in CA at the age of 18, giving them the same rights as a married heterosexual couple. However, Heterosexuals can only register a Domestic Partnership at age 62! So, the only way for heterosexual couples to get the same rights is to get married.
That's NOT equal.
To make it equal we need to change the domestic partnership law to allow heterosexual couples to register as domestic partners at age 18.
i hate all yes on 8 supporters, every single one. you all disgust me. Fuck all of you